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LloydMiller wrote:

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In my self-analysis, I'd say I finally "took you up" on the INTP "personality type" issue that you have been pushing from the beginning. It has taken me many months to specifically responding to that issue. I thought it would be impolitic and impolite to challenge you on that issue at the outset.

I welcome the challenge, but please clarify the nature of your challenge. Is it a challenge to the legitimacy of "personality type" classification as a relatively unchangeable attribute acquired at or shortly after birth. or is it a challenge to the classification I find myselt a part of, or is it a challenge to my interpretations? I mentioned my personality type from the outset for the benefit of the group to be aware of the particular "bias" imbedded in my outlook. Such a "bias" provides a useful secondary perspective for use by the astute.

By the way, I think you are far too "self-congratulatory" about being an INTP. You have yet to respond to my criticism of "thinker types", including myself, as prone to a retreat from reality into sterile theoretical "cultures of critique" and imaginary (paranoia tinged) self-importance, etc. due to handicaps. . .etc.

You seem to be attempting to impose mental illness. I would indeed be mentally ill if I were to succumb to perceptions of myself as handicapped. That I do not is an indicator of a positive mental attitude. Each personality type reflects a different set of strengths and weaknesses relative to the others. Each personality type sees the traits of the others in a different light than the possessor. I find your criticism of "thinker types" to be typical of how other types view the "thinker type." It is rather far removed from the way it is experienced by the "thinker type" itself. Additional perspective might be helpful for you consideration. Viewing the psyche from the stimulus-response perspective, some types make a rapid response to stimuli, others make a very slow response. The "P" classification designates people with a very slow response time. From the perspective of the "J" type the "P" appears to be doing nothing, whereas from the perspective of the "P" he is heavily engaged in studious contemplation to assure the appropriateness and desired impact of his response. Your words are no doubt borrowed from the spinmeister's attempt at perception management.

No, I don't see "thinker types" as any closer to "self-actualization"

How close one is to self actualization is not type specific. The point I was making was in regard to efforts by corporations to stunt the emotional growth of their employees to prevent them from reaching self actualization. The natural lack of importance attached to "belonging" and "social status" by INTP's tends to leave them relatively immune to such efforts. Of course this will be viewed as a strength or weakness depending on the personality type of the viewer.

LloydMiller wrote:

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Ole Dude wrote:
You seem to be attempting to impose mental illness. I would indeed be mentally ill if I were to succumb to perceptions of myself as handicapped. That I do not is an indicator of a positive mental attitude.

No, if you are handicapped, the perception of yourself as handicapped is HEALTH. A positive attitude can be delusional and, in fact, USUALLY is!

Everyone short of archetypal perfection in every respect, physical and mental, is handicapped relative to that perfection. I use the word "handicapped" in its pure and perfect mathematical meaning not as an "emotionally negative" appellation.

Apparently, you want to view being an introverted "thinker type" as inborn instead of reaction formation to other handicaps as described by Alfred Adler and others. Adler identified "compensation" as the typical way an individual deals with an area inferiority. Introverted "thinking" is one of those compensations.

Ideally, over time, one becomes aware of ones compensatory behaviour and deals with the over all situation in a more rational complete way. Self-actualization, if that is what one wants to call it, would be rounding oneself out as best possible in all areas, not accepting a pattern of "compensation" as self-definitional and PERFECTING only that.

I am aware that each of the personality types can be construed as having been developed in early childhood in reaction to circumstances he experienced. I am also aware that everyone starts from one of these types depending on those circumstances. The enneagram of personality description lays out an optimal progression of self development through a sequence of types which differs according to the starting point in the progression. I realize that by simply engaging in this forum I am acting "out of character" from my starting type. The next positive progression from a 5 is an 8. I take on different characteristics when I progress to an 8, but my personality still makes use of "preparations" prescribed for me as a 5. A personality 5 operating as an 8 has different, and more mature traits of the 8 than one who actually begins as an 8 as their fundamental reaction formation. Moving backward from one's fundamental type is the indicator of mental illness. An 8 who moved backward to a 5 would exhibit traits of mental illness, for example. Since everyone starts as one of the fundamental types, I think it is inappropriate to describe any of the types as an indicator of mental illness. The issue is which way he moves thereafter.

Independently of these considerations, a good feeling about oneself is a good sign of mental health as long as the person is also dealing with reality. In my case, my psychologist not only stated that I was in firm contact with reality but that I had a capacity for insight as well. He instructed my attorney that I could not be helped regardless of contradictions my behavior suggested relative to the model she had been indoctrinated with. I learned that the model she and other law enforcement personnel have been indoctrinated with is a restricted 4-type model. My personality type being incident in only 1% of the population would not be included in such a model. To make the story short, the law enforcement community has been indoctrinated in effect to regard normal traits of my personality type as though they were an indicator of mental illness, as they surely would be if observed in one of the more common types. I do not know if this was purposefully designed or not. My investigations into the matter left me with impression that one with a healthy propensity to examine himself before accusing others is a candidate for good mental health generally, which was confirmed by my psychologist. It would appear that you have been provided with such an introductory and limited model as well, which inaccurately leads you to premature and inacurate, but efficient conclusions that apply in most circumstances.